HawthorneVillager.com

Hawthorne Village (Milton) Discussion Board
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:26 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:14 pm
Posts: 686
Location: Phase 3A
Wondering what would be the reason for two similar homes in sizes and type, one uses almost the double the volume of gas used than the other. The one that uses less gas has double glazed windows in the front elevation only but the other one all double glazed. The one that uses less energy has the 5 feet patio door and other other one has 6 feet patio door. Is this could be due to the type of furnace that is installed? Any thoughts?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Posts: 1474
If your windows don't seem to be the prime suspect, it's probably down to insulation levels and vapour tightness of the structures.

Another variable would be wind levels in different locations, is the less-efficient house in a windier area? That could speed up heat loss, with a strong positive air pressure (ie: wind) on one side of a leaky structure, and corresponding negative air pressure on the side opposite. The result is to literally suck heat out of the structure through gaps in the vapour barrier envelope on the -ve pressure side when winds are strong, replaced by cold air being sucked into the structure on the +ve pressure side.

I presume both are modern homes, Mattamy or similar? I think there can be unbelievably shoddy workmanship in terms of the attention paid to vapour barrier tightness, resulting in heat loss. Much harder to quantify that, we're left making presumptions with out a test, but according to my Google-fu it's called a blower door test.

The two biggest air sieve / heat thieves in most of these things (read: "ours") are the attics and garages. Ever wonder why your garage is only -1C whn it's -15C outside? I base all of this on living in a Mattamy construction for 10 years, simply my observations.

_________________
This one thing probably never goes away
I think this one thing is always supposed to stay
This one thing doesn't have to go away


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:14 pm
Posts: 686
Location: Phase 3A
thank you for your input B&t402.

The one that uses much higher energy is a Mattamy house and the other house not a Mattamy house but not considered a superior builder though. The efficient home was built in 2008/2009 and the Mattamy one in 2014.

I do not know which one is in the windier area. The Mattamy one has more insulation in the attic (believe in line with the higher code requirements lately). I need to check the temperature in the garage in both houses to see if it could be due to garage as well.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:27 am
Posts: 3131
Same number of occupants?
Perhaps more showers and laundry are a contributor.

_________________
No, no. You know who was right all along? The Mongolians. They knew that you just can't wall yourself off from the outside world. Putting walls up never helps anything. Tearing them down brings us together.
-Randy-South Park


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 3429
Thermostat set points? Gas fireplace? More occupants using gas stove (if applicable), dryer, hot water, etc. Is one energy star rated? So many variables.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:14 pm
Posts: 686
Location: Phase 3A
Thermostat set points are 1 degree higher temperature in the efficient home than the other, so it is out of question.

No Gas fire place is being used in both places.

The energy efficient home uses gas stove and the non energy efficient home uses electric stove.

Water heater same size and efficient.

Furnace could be different.

Occupants same.

Laundry/shower do not affect as it is not gas powered for laundry (but may be little for hot water), but again it is same for both houses.

I believe the answer from B&T 402 about vapor barriers, garage as well as type of furnace could be two factors.

May be blower door test can reveal something, but it is generally for older homes and not for a house build in year 2014.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:42 pm
Posts: 1474
On attics, even with lots of insulation up there, it's air leaking out through gaps in your vapour barrier that can undermine your insulation. Regardless of building codes or builder marketing claims, your levels of insulation may be surprisingly meaningless if you are leaking air up into your attic apace. Just reading on this now, is this blower door test a part of any test performed prior to delivery? Or do the builders just get to say they are building better, tighter? Does not appear to be a part of any PDI in this neck of the woods anyway. Seems that's the only way to prove anything.

Speaking of plumbing, on the excursions into my attic to prepare for an insulation top-up (which, full disclosure, has yet to occur), I found surprisingly large gaps around plumbing vent penetrations, round pipes passing through square holes/gaps at the tops of wall headers, with scraps of batt insulation packed in, with a bit of red VB tape loosely applied. Inadequate. Also found needlessly large drilled holes for electrical wires in the tops of wall headers for wires feeding ceiling fixtures. In a few areas, the guy seemingly only had a 3/4" drill bit on hand for holes to feed single lines of 14/2, making holes about twice as large as needed, making huge air gaps around a few wires. Pathetic. What all of this does is to create a chimney effect, warm air rising to the attic in every spot. A couple cans of spray foam emptied out fixed all of this, I'm calling it good for air tightneess up there now.

I wouldn't think your "furnace differences" could be a variable. The thing is either safely making heat and the blower is blowing or it's not. Since I'm onto builder deficiencies, what about HVAC supply line assembly? If there are untaped gaps in supply lines inside of wall cavities, you're losing heated air to needlessly heat the inside of a wall, or to leak into the attic or garage. I found a few of the visible connections on our basement ceiling untaped when we moved in, I taped off all I could get at, leaving me presuming that there are imperfect connections inside of every wall, building codes notwithstanding.

Are these rentals Carl? I sure hope heat loss is your biggest concern with these items going forward! As you can see, it's a priority with our primary residence! :D

_________________
This one thing probably never goes away
I think this one thing is always supposed to stay
This one thing doesn't have to go away


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:14 pm
Posts: 686
Location: Phase 3A
1) Need to check attic for gaps in vapour barrier

2) No blower test performed as part of PDI

3) Gaps in plumbing vent penetrations, need to go up all the way and check in summer

4) Any untaped gaps in sully lines inside of wall cavities, need to hire a professional to check this.

5)All loose ends in the basement ceiling, I must have taped, but need to check again to make sure.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:19 pm
Posts: 2331
My 2 cents. What about air that is exhausted out of the house. Cooking, especially with gas as I think the piping is bigger, more cubic ft of air removed. Water heater power exhaust, furnace, dryer exhaust, bathroom vents. House across from me has permanent snow melt around his b/r vent, I don't think he ever shuts it off. All this warm air has to be replaced and the only place it can come from is outside. I suspect most homes run a negative interior pressure.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:23 pm
Posts: 2894
Location: New Milton
Location might be factor as well. One between homes and not on windy street another on open space.

I would check with this fancy thermometer which is measuring spots on walls and else to see if here is any bad, cold spots.
Doors insulation makes big difference.

Also how is furnace set. One could be on green light and still exchanging air. I found what using re-circulation works best.

And it could be just as simple as one person taking two hours long showers.

_________________
Let me know if you need a picture or two


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:28 am
Posts: 1546
Does one house have an HRV and another not? I believe HRV's are code now and they may not have been in 2008/9.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:14 pm
Posts: 686
Location: Phase 3A
KGC wrote:
Does one house have an HRV and another not? I believe HRV's are code now and they may not have been in 2008/9.


Yes one that is consuming more gas has HRV and the other not.

Does it matter to have higher gas consumption?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:14 am
Posts: 4834
Location: Milton
Carl wrote:
KGC wrote:
Does one house have an HRV and another not? I believe HRV's are code now and they may not have been in 2008/9.


Yes one that is consuming more gas has HRV and the other not.

Does it matter to have higher gas consumption?


IF the homes are similar and the one with the HRV has higher gas consumption then the HRV could be a contributing factor -

- because HRV's do cool homes when it is used which is why people should not use HRV's more than they need to.
- or, the HRV could be on an override setting which means the HRV is always ON thus constantly cooling the home causing the furnace to run more often.

Or, maybe the owner with the HRV saw Mike Holmes on TV wag his finger back and fourth as he told an elderly couple - we put in an HRV for you and I want you to leave it ON ALL the time :shock: This after all is the worst advice he could have given them.

_________________
For Home Inspection services call Andy Shaw at Halton Home Inspection Service. 905 876 4761


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:14 pm
Posts: 686
Location: Phase 3A
I change the HRV if I want to run. Last few months it is not running but I will take a note that HRV cooling effect.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:28 am
Posts: 1546
My work here is done.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.012s | 15 Queries | GZIP : Off ]