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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:08 pm 
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http://economics.about.com/cs/businessc ... ssions.htm
Recession vs. Depressions....

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:08 pm 
Like I said, I don't have the strong background on the subject, but I would agree that I'd need to see a MUCH higher unemployment rate both in the states and Canada for one (what was the current figure in the states, I believe they said 8%...still means 92% are employed). Secondly, I'd have to see the stock market go a lot lower as well (if you want to compare today's 'depression' to that of the 30's, the stock market was a lot worse off back then, in relative terms). I also read that there is no clear definition given to what a depression is, whereas there is for a recession (two consecutive quarters of decline, something like that). In Canada I'd also have to see real estate doing a lot worse than it is right now. Remember, I admit my background in business/economics isn't as strong as some of the others on here, but you wanted my opinion and those are a couple areas I'd need to see become a lot weaker before I'd start thinking depression in either country.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:55 pm 
Ol Skool wrote:


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So what number would the Dow have to be in your assessment for you to concede we are in a Depression?


Now that I will not speculate on because like I said before, my background on that is not strong enough to make a good educated guess. I hear what you are saying and hopefully it won't come to that. You and others make some valid points with some being fact and some being speculation. Even the greatest economists out there can only speculate with regards to some issues. And is it just me or does Mark Carney keep changing his mind on the state of the economy (hence he can only speculate)? I have family deep in the stock market that have taken a big hit so I'm hoping it won't get to depression levels for their sake (and everyone else's as well).

Oh, and thanks for keeping it civil thus far. I'm learning still and enjoy talking about this subject when kept civil.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:08 am 
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Rush to Judgment........By Peter Schiff


Talk show host and conservative icon Rush Limbaugh recently ignited a firestorm of criticism for expressing his desire that Barack Obama should fail. Democrats, and even some Republicans, suggested that he had put aside his patriotism to wish for an economic collapse that would result in political advantage for conservatives. However, if you believe as I, and apparently Rush, that Obama’s plans will prevent recovery, then wishing that they fail to become actual policy is the right thing to do. The problem is that since Mr. Limbaugh has a history of partisanship, and since he did not forcefully criticize the Bush Administration for similar (if slightly more modest) plans, many cannot see past the messenger to recognize the truth in the message.

I am certain that if Obama and the Pelosi/Reed Congress succeed in fully implementing their agenda, there is no chance the U.S economy will recover its position as world’s leading economy. Instead, America will start down the road that has condemned so many nations to economic mediocrity. By continuing and magnifying the Bush stimulus and bail-out policies, the economic rebalancing that is so vital to a sustainable recovery cannot occur.

Limbaugh merely said what members of the loyal opposition would say if they were true to their supposed philosophy. But since so many Republicans supported the Bush bailouts and stimulus packages, it would be too blatantly hypocritical to reverse course now. In truth, for all his talk of change Obama has merely continued and expanded the failed policies of Bush.

The one aspect of Obama’s agenda that has galvanized Republican criticism is higher taxes on the rich. While I also abhor tax increases, the spending increases supported by both parties are far more damaging to the economy. In fact, I actually support Obama’s decision to eliminate the “carried interest” tax advantages that had so unequally benefitted hedge fund managers. If I had my way the income tax would be abolished completely, but as long as we have one it is not fair for hedge fund managers to pay lower marginal taxes than the guys who shine their thousand dollar shoes.

The arguments that higher tax rates will discourage hard work and initiative are true across the entire income spectrum. It makes no sense politically to single out the mega-wealthy for special treatment. The sad truth is that Republicans are spending their dwindling political capital on a non-issue. Most hedge funds relied on leveraged borrowing to produce oversized returns. Now that the debt markets are essentially closed, there is not much “carried interest” income left to tax.

The bigger issue is that few Republicans are making any serious effort to oppose the staggering deficits that will guarantee huge future tax increases and runaway inflation for everyone, rich and poor. By simply clinging to tax cuts as their single economic miracle cure, Republicans risk further marginalization.

The president claims that his constituency is Main Street, not Wall Street. But for all the scorn heaped on the “fat cats,” we must remember that it took two to tango. Sure, Wall Street loaned out too much money, but it was Main Street that borrowed it. Average Americans used the windfall for the biggest shopping binge in world history. As a result our entire economy has been transformed from one based on savings and production to one based on borrowing and consumption.

Now that this false paradigm has been exposed, the transition back to economic viability will be painful. Jobs must be lost in the service sector so that labor can be reallocated towards goods production. Asset prices, for both stocks and real estate, must decline to levels appropriate for current circumstances. In addition, the dollar’s exchange rate must fall to reflect our weakened competitive position. However, by postponing these adjustments we merely assure an even more painful transition in the future, especially for the average Americans whose interests our new president claims to champion. But by then Obama will have his coveted second term. Rush is right on this one: Obama’s agenda must fail now, lest we wander too long down the road to destitution.


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 Post subject: Expansion of War
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:04 pm 
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Something to think about

The Implications: Expansion of War or New Sustainable Paradigms?So what are the implications of all this?

In a 2007 lecture, Seymour Hersh, a Pulitzer Prize winning American investigative journalist, stated that he feared what would happen if American citizens began to believe the propaganda from the US administration now that the rhetoric to attack Iran has changed from preventing Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons to stopping them from killing American troops in Iraq. He stated that this change in tactics seemed to be working and Americans were now starting to support an attack on Iran. As the Zogby Poll indicates, Hersh’s fears are becoming realized.

It should be clear by now that the US economy is in a recession and headed for a very hard landing, due in large part to the subprime crisis and the inevitable end to fractional reserve banking. Unfortunately, as the expansion of current wars into the European continent indicates, most of our ‘elected’ officials and economists believe that the short term solution to saving the banking theocracies from completely collapsing, with a crisis of this magnitude, is to wage war. However this strategy has the reverse effect, and completely collapses an economy if the war drags on by mushrooming the national debt and depleting the resources of the warring nations. This kind of economic lifeline has two major consequences: First it devastates the populace and the environment, and second it consolidates assets for the elite.

There is also one major setback to the expansion of the current wars, it will bring about World War III. But then again maybe that is what the US economy needs to stay alive, a World War: The Perfect Consuming Machine. After all it was World War II that decisively ended the great depression, and since most economic indicators are worse now then they were then, it would be reasonable to assume that the United States will start World War III for nothing other then to continue the American lifestyle, maintain the banking plutocracy, and consolidate world assets into the corporate coffer.

If World War III, the minimum expected death toll for which is 200 million, is allowed to take place to save the banking institutions from collapse, then it is a true sign of corporate economic intelligence and control. However this will not resonate well with humanity, but then again, corporations are anything but human and war is everything but humane, which is why we are in desperate need of a new sustainable paradigm.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:13 pm 
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William,

So far you have been right, I truly hope this time your information is wrong. I certainly do not want be caught in a world war with my family.
I truly believe if you are born in Canada, you have won the lotto... no poverty, heath care system, no war... I pray it stays this way.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:22 pm 
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THE TIMING COULDNT BE MORE COINCIDENTAL....the war mongers are already planning a major conflict with china...rest assured this will be the "way out" for the U.S.

GOODLUCK...and stay in cash



This US Navy file photo shows the military Sealift Command ocean surveillance ship USNS Impeccable (T-AGOS-23). … WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The United States Monday urged China to observe international maritime rules after the Pentagon said five Chinese ships, including a naval vessel, harassed a U.S. Navy ship in international waters.

The Chinese vessels "shadowed and aggressively maneuvered in dangerously close proximity" to the USNS Impeccable on Sunday, with one vessel coming within 25 feet of the U.S. ship, a U.S. Defense Department statement said.

The American ship, an unarmed ocean surveillance vessel, was conducting routine operations in the South China Sea 75 miles south of Hainan Island, according to the Pentagon.

Defense officials said the incident followed days of increasingly aggressive Chinese conduct in the area, including fly-bys of two U.S. Navy ships by Chinese maritime surveillance planes.

"Our ships operate fairly regularly in international waters where these incidents took place," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs told a news conference.

"We are going to continue to operate in those international waters and we expect the Chinese to observe international laws around them."

The U.S. embassy in Beijing lodged a protest Sunday with the Chinese government, State Department spokesman Robert Wood said. U.S. defense policy officials Monday reiterated the protest to China's defense attache in Washington.

Officials at the Chinese embassy in Washington did not return calls seeking comment.

"The unprofessional maneuvers by Chinese vessels violated the requirement under international law to operate with due regard for the rights and safety of other lawful users of the ocean," Marine Corps Major Stewart Upton, a Pentagon spokesman, said in a statement.

"We expect Chinese ships to act responsibly and refrain from provocative activities that could lead to miscalculation or a collision at sea."

The Pentagon identified the Chinese vessels in Sunday's incident as a navy intelligence ship, a bureau of maritime fisheries patrol vessel, a state oceanographic administration patrol vessel and two small Chinese-flagged trawlers.

The Impeccable is one of five ocean surveillance ships that serve with the U.S. 7th Fleet, which is based Yokosuka, Japan. The ships use low-frequency sound to search for undersea threats including submarines, a U.S. military official said.

Hainan Island is the site of a Chinese naval base that houses ballistic missile submarines, according to independent analysts.

The Pentagon said the Impeccable had a civilian crew when it encountered the Chinese vessels Sunday. The ship's official Web page, maintained by U.S. Military Sealift Command, lists a 50-member crew, including 25 military personnel.

The Chinese vessels surrounded the Impeccable while two closed to within 50 feet, waving Chinese flags and telling the U.S. ship to leave the area, the Defense Department said.

The Chinese used polls in an attempt to snag the acoustic array that allows Impeccable to monitor underwater events, a defense spokesman said.

The Impeccable responded by spraying one of the vessels with fire hoses and its crew disrobed to their underwear.

The U.S. ship informed the Chinese vessels by radio that it was leaving the area and requested a safe path to navigate. Two of the Chinese vessels stopped directly in front of the U.S. ship and dropped pieces of wood in its path.

The Pentagon described accounts of half a dozen other incidents dating back to March 4, in which the Impeccable and its sister vessel, USNS Victorious, were subjected to aggressive behavior, including dozens of fly-bys by Chinese Y-12 maritime surveillance aircraft.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:10 am 
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bubbles, the only kings around here are folks who liquidated well over a yr and a half ago and held cash.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:22 am 
Here's another perspective.....

"Oh, those Boring Canadians" by Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek, February 16,
2009

The legendary editor of The New Republic, Michael Kinsley, once held a
"Boring Headline Contest" and decided that the winner was "Worthwhile
Canadian Initiatives." Twenty-two years later, the magazine was rescued from
its economic troubles by a Canadian media company, which should have taught
us Americans to be a bit more humble. Now there is even more striking
evidence of Canada's virtues. Guess which country, alone in the
industrialized world, has not faced a single bank failure, calls for
bailouts or government intervention in the financial or mortgage sectors.
Yup, it's Canada. In 2008, the World Economic Forum ranked Canada's banking
system the healthiest in the world. America's ranked 40th, Britain's 44th.

Canada has done more than survive this financial crisis. The country is
positively thriving in it. Canadian banks are well capitalized and poised
to take advantage of opportunities that American and European banks cannot
seize. The Toronto Dominion Bank, for example, was the 15th-largest bank in
North America one year ago. Now it is the fifth-largest. It hasn't grown in
size; the others have all shrunk.

So what accounts for the genius of the Canadians? Common sense. Over the
past 15 years, as the United States and Europe loosened regulations on
their financial industries, the Canadians refused to follow suit, seeing
the old rules as useful shock absorbers. Canadian banks are

typically leveraged at 18 to 1-compared with U.S. banks at 26 to 1 and European banks
at a frightening 61 to 1. Partly this reflects Canada's more risk-averse
business culture, but it is also a product of old-fashioned rules on
banking.

Canada has also been shielded from the worst aspects of this crisis because
its housing prices have not fluctuated as wildly as those in the United
States. Home prices are down 25 percent in the United States, but only half
as much in Canada. Why? Well, the Canadian tax code does not provide the
massive incentive for over-consumption that the U.S. code does: interest on
your mortgage isn't deductible up north. In addition, home loans in the
United States are "non-recourse," which basically means that if you go
belly up on a bad mortgage, it's mostly the bank's problem. In Canada, it's
yours. Ah, but you've heard American politicians wax eloquent on the need
for these expensive programs-interest deductibility alone costs the federal
government $100 billion a year-because they allow the average Joe to
fulfill the American Dream of owning a home. Sixty-eight percent of
Americans own their own homes. And the rate of Canadian homeownership? It's
68.4 percent.

Canada has been remarkably responsible over the past decade or so. It has
had 12 years of budget surpluses, and can now spend money to fuel a
recovery from a strong position. The government has restructured the
national pension system, placing it on a firm fiscal footing, unlike our
own insolvent Social Security. Its health-care system is cheaper than
America's by far (accounting for 9.7 percent of GDP, versus 15.2 percent
here), and yet does better on all major indexes. Life expectancy in Canada
is 81 years, versus 78 in the United States; "healthy life expectancy" is
72 years, versus 69. American car companies have moved so many jobs to
Canada to take advantage of lower health-care costs that since 2004,Ontario
and not Michigan has been North America's largest car-producing region.

I could go on. The U.S. currently has a brain-dead immigration system. We
issue a small number of work visas and green cards, turning away from our
shores thousands of talented students who want to stay and work here.
Canada, by contrast, has no limit on the number of skilled migrants who can
move to the country. They can apply on their own for a Canadian Skilled
Worker Visa, which allows them to become perfectly legal "permanent
residents" in Canada-no need for a sponsoring employer, or even a job.
Visas are awarded based on education level, work experience, age and
language abilities. If a prospective immigrant earns 67 points out of 100
total (holding a Ph.D. is worth 25 points, for instance), he or she can
become a full-time, legal resident of Canada.

Companies are noticing. In 2007 Microsoft, frustrated by its inability to
hire foreign graduate students in the United States, decided to open a
research center in Vancouver. The company's announcement noted that it
would staff the center with "highly skilled people affected by immigration
issues in the U.S." So the brightest Chinese and Indian software engineers
are attracted to the United States, trained by American universities, then
thrown out of the country and picked up by Canada-where most of them will
work, innovate and pay taxes for the rest of their lives.

If President Obama is looking for smart government, there is much he, and
all of us, could learn from our quiet-OK, sometimes boring-neighbour to the
north. Meanwhile, in the councils of the financial world, Canada is pushing
for new rules for financial institutions that would reflect its approach.
This strikes me as, well, a worthwhile Canadian initiative.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:41 am 
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O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!

From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

God bless our people and land


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:40 pm 
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Article on Recession
http://www.thestar.com/business/article/601076


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:01 pm 
Too funny fillerguy! A quote I like to say.... It's all good! :)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:14 pm 
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lipstick wont help this pig....

Carney does a double take

hmmmmm i guess that 3.8% forecast was just the lipstick

he will have to do much better than that




Recession in Canada to worsen, Carney says, as G20 finance ministers pledge common front

Mar 15, 2009 04:30 AM
Comments on this story (20)
Bruce Campion-Smith
OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF

OTTAWA – As G20 finance ministers met yesterday to co-ordinate a global response to the recession, the governor of the Bank of Canada warned that Canada's economic recovery will be "delayed."

"Many of the downslide risks that we identified in our last monetary policy (report) are now materializing. There are severe global headwinds," Mark Carney told reporters yesterday in Horsham, England, following a meeting of G20 central bankers and finance ministers.

And Carney warned that because the global financial sector had yet to turn around – a condition of Canada's recovery – the situation could be expected to worsen here, a prediction he suggested would be seen in the Bank of Canada's next forecast, due next month.

"Our recovery will be both attenuated and delayed," Carney said.

"Clearly the risks are breaking to the downside, globally, and we've seen further deterioration momentum in the Canadian economy."

Carney refused to talk specifics about his new outlook – in January he predicted growth of 3.8 per cent next year – but said he's in "broad agreement" with the move by the International Monetary Fund to trim its own forecasts.

"Global demand continues to contract, and I think as many of you are aware, the IMF has revised down its projection for global growth."

That could spell more bad news for Canada, where the economy shed 82,600 jobs last month, pushing the unemployment rate to 7.7 per cent, the worst level in five years. Since October, nearly 300,000 jobs have disappeared, more than half of them in Ontario.

At the G20 meeting, finance ministers, including federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty, pledged to take "whatever action is necessary" to pull their countries out of recession but stopped short of committing billions more in additional stimulus spending.


The weekend meeting in England is a prelude to a meeting of G20 leaders, including Prime Minister Stephen Harper, in London on April 2. At the end of their meeting yesterday, finance ministers pledged a common front to reverse the sagging economic performance that has sent unemployment soaring around the world.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:02 pm 
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When retirement savings tank

DID THE 85 FACTOR JUST BECOME THE 90 FACTOR?
i mentioned the hit they would take months ago,




– Sandro Contenta
Underfunded plans shake pensioners
David Jeanes thought he had "Freedom 55" when he retired from Nortel in 2003 with a full pension.With RRSPs sinking and pensions underfunded, many people will work longer or retire on far less

Mar 15, 2009 04:30 AM
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Sandro Contenta
FEATURE WRITER

Liz Fong's plans for early retirement have faded with the economy.

An official with a Toronto office workers' union, Fong had planned to quit in three years, when she hit 60. Then her retirement savings tanked.

With stock markets showing no signs of recovery, Fong laughs when she recalls the once popular advertising slogan touting "Freedom 55."

"Looks like it's Freedom 85 for me," says Fong, president of Local 343 of the Canadian Office and Professional Employees Union.

Fong pushed back her retirement when she saw her "defined contribution" pension and RRSPs – both invested in the stock market – drop almost 20 per cent late last year to 2007 levels. She now thinks they may be at 2005 levels, but she's too afraid to verify.

Fong isn't alone, of course. The made-in-America recession has battered retirement savings in Canada – from individually held RRSPs to massive pension funds – to the edge of crisis, experts say.

There were assets of almost $2 trillion in RRSPs and registered pension funds in Canada in 2007. The global collapse in stocks, corporate bonds and real estate resulted in staggering losses in retirement savings. Estimates range from $300 billion to $400 billion, placing Canada's complex pension structure under severe strain.

Most Canadians don't have employer-sponsored pension plans. So, many close to retirement and fully dependent on RRSPs will either work longer than they had planned or retire on far more meagre pension incomes. Employers in the private sector are obliged by law to make up shortfalls in most of the pension plans they sponsor. If the stock market stagnates for years, actuaries estimate some will need to contribute half of annual salary costs to keep them viable.

Workers and retirees of struggling companies that have severely underfunded pension plans – including General Motors, Nortel and Air Canada – face significantly reduced pensions if their employers go bust.

Ontario, through its already deficit-wracked Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund, could be on the hook for billions of dollars in pension payments if major companies with underfunded plans go out of business.

Canada's aging population – more than 25 per cent will be older than 65 by 2031, compared with 13 per cent in 2005 – makes fixing the pension system all the more urgent.

The federal government last month announced cross-country hearings to "strengthen the security of pension plan benefits." Ottawa will cover only the 7 per cent of private plans under its jurisdiction, including those in airlines, banking and telecommunications.

Some provinces, including Ontario, have had recent task forces consider pension reforms. But their work was conducted before the recession hit and stock markets plunged.

"This is probably the most troubling environment that I've seen in my working life," says Malcolm Hamilton, a pension consultant at Mercer in Toronto with 35 years of experience.

Compounding the problem for many is a skewed pension system that allows bigger retirement savings and tax breaks for the minority of workers with "defined benefit" plans, including public servants.

Hamilton, the actuary for the Ontario teachers' plan, blames mainly finance department officials for the bias. He says their comfortable and secure government pensions have made them insensitive to the retirement struggles of the many Canadians in the private sector.

"They should be guilty to the point of embarrassment," Hamilton says, sitting in a conference room at his Bay St. office. "They've basically built this magnificent (pension) mansion for themselves where everybody else is out in tent city, and they couldn't care less."

The good news is that the Canada Pension Plan (CPP) is expected to meet its pension obligations, at current contribution rates from working Canadians, for at least another 75 years. It currently pays retirement pensions equal to 25 per cent of salary in inflation-protected benefits, up to a monthly maximum of $908. The average payment is $490 a month.

In 2006, almost 4.2 million Canadians received CPP retirement pensions, including one million surviving spouses or common-law partners. In addition, Ottawa pays low-income seniors a Guaranteed Income Supplement and those who meet residency requirements an Old Age Security pension (OAS).

Some see the CPP as the answer to pension troubles. They note its indexed payments, its wide coverage and its ability to make big investments at low overhead costs. Doubling CPP benefits would solve the most pressing pension challenge today – the growing number of working Canadians without employer-sponsored plans, says Darcie Beggs, a pension expert with the Canadian Union of Public Employees.

Only 38 per cent of employed Canadians are covered by workplace pensions – plans established by either employers or unions to pay retirement income. In the private sector, only 27 per cent of workers enjoy such plans, according to Statistics Canada.

In other words, a large majority of working Canadians are relying on CPP, OAS and RRSPs for their retirement income. Some are also counting on the sale of a home or farm, the survival of a small business or rental income. That explains the panic many feel, particularly those not likely to see a recovery in RRSP investments before they retire.

Many will delay retirement to offset those losses, says Grant Schellenberg, who analyzed a survey on the retirement expectations of workers aged 45 to 59 for a Statistics Canada report last fall.

The survey was conducted in 2007, before the recession hit. It found workers nearing retirement in a generally positive mood, with 69 per cent expecting their retirement income to be adequate. Those concerned about their pensions planned to retire later than those who weren't.

The median retirement age in the private sector is 62. In the public sector it's 58. The difference points to pension systems that divide workers into "haves" and "have-nots," says Toronto pension consultant James Pierlot.

The fortunate ones – usually those with unions – have "defined benefit" plans, enjoyed by 17 per cent of workers in the private sector and 78 per cent of those in the public sector. These plans guarantee a pre-set pension income regardless of what stock markets do. If the markets plunge, employers are obliged by law to make up the difference with tax-deductible contributions, though some plans may increase contributions for workers as well.

Workers relying on RRSPs have no retirement income protection. Neither do those in "defined contribution" plans, where the employer sets up individual accounts for employees and makes part of the contribution. Neither group can make up for losses in the stock market – even if they have the money to do so – unless they have unused RRSP contribution room. And they can accumulate much less retirement savings annually than those with defined benefit plans – a maximum 18 per cent of salary compared to 40 per cent for a 55-year-old public sector worker, for example.

"How many people know what I've just told you? Almost nobody knows this," Pierlot says in an interview.

"The ideal end-game for me is people call their MPs and say, `I want to have a good pension, too. Can you please do something about it?'"

But these days, defined benefit plans have also been hit hard. Watson Wyatt Worldwide, a leading actuarial firm, estimates the typical Canadian plan began 2008 with funds to cover 96 per cent of its pension obligations – even if the company became bankrupt. By the end of the year, the typical plan had enough for 69 per cent.

Public sector plans sponsored by governments are safest. To help private pension funds, the federal and Ontario governments have announced plans to extend from five to 10 years – under certain conditions – the deadline for making them solvent. But workers and pensioners with companies that fail would see pension benefits slashed if the plan is underfunded.

Ottawa resident Heather McIntosh, 52, fears that will be the case at Nortel, the once mighty telecom equipment maker. She lost her job on Jan. 11 after 35 years at the company, many of them as an executive assistant to senior vice-presidents. Three days later, Nortel filed for bankruptcy protection from its creditors.

Her years of service were enough to qualify her for a full pension, with no reduction due to her age. But the plan was underfunded by $1.8 billion in 2007, and some reports put the shortfall more recently at $2.8 billion. So unless Nortel survives on its own or is sold to a company that will assume its pension obligations, 5,900 workers and 16,000 retirees in Canada face a reduction in the pensions they expect or already receive.

"I'm sitting in limbo," says McIntosh. "I don't know if I'm going to get a pension, and if I am, how much?"

McIntosh says severance documents she signed with the company prevent her from giving out financial information. So she won't say how much pension she is supposed to receive. But Nortel employees with her experience get about $2,500 a month.

To make matters worse, McIntosh's RRSPs have crashed and she lost "a whole bunch of money" invested in Nortel stock. With a mortgage, car payments and a teenager in high school, McIntosh's husband, a retired economist, was forced to go back to work and recently landed a contract. McIntosh is looking for a job.

"The whole thing is just so sad," she says.

In Mississauga, Air Canada pilot Hans Veit has similar anxiety. An Air Canada pilot for 29 years, he plans to retire when he turns 60 in eight years. He pays into a defined benefit plan that guarantees him about 60 per cent of his salary. He won't say how much he makes but notes that a pilot with 35 years of experience earns about $200,000.

But with Air Canada wobbling again – it lost $1 billion last year – and talk of bankruptcy in the air, Veit fears all bets are off, particularly with a $3.2 billion shortfall in the pension plan.

Veit considers his lifestyle modest – his wife calls him a cheapskate and his car is 10 years old – yet he wonders if he should cut back. He wants certainty about his pension and calls on Prime Minister Stephen Harper to guarantee as much as possible the viability of pension plans for companies that go bust.

The uncertainty "is causing my family to alter their spending habits," Veit says. "Everybody is saying spend, spend, to get the economy going, but I'm thinking I should be saving because I don't know what's down the road for me."

As a plan under federal jurisdiction, Air Canada's pension fund isn't eligible for Ontario's Pension Benefits Guarantee Fund. It covers pension shortfalls for employees up to $1,000 a month – a figure the province's Expert Commission on Pensions recently recommended be boosted to up to $2,500.

But the guarantee fund already has a deficit of more than $100 million. Picking up the shortfall tab for General Motors alone would cost Ontario $3 billion, according to one actuarial estimate. And if the government spent the money, taxpayers who have seen their RRSPs plummet will demand pension bailouts too, argues Mercer pension consultant Hamilton.

"When you find yourself in this situation you're just picking the lesser of evils," he says, referring to the provincial government's options.

Still, Hamilton notes that Canadians with even a partial workplace pension will be better off than those nearing retirement with only CPP, OAS and battered RRSP savings.

It's not a recipe for destitution, no matter what pension category Canadians are in, Hamilton argues. But many nearing retirement face noticeably less comfortable golden years.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:33 am 
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The John Stewart thing was hilarious. Jim Cramer is a grade A piece of garbage, but anyone who bought stocks based on his advice deserved to lose their money. I don’t know how anyone could take that guy seriously.

While I think he was dead on with Cramer, I would have to call out Stewart on his attacks on the news networks involvement in this mess. To say they were only hyping the economic gravy train is not true. Yes, they had a lot of people on, like CEO’s of major corps, who provided information that was just not true. But they also had people on like Peter Schiff, who warned everyone to run for the hills. People need to be aware of who these people are, and to take every word with a grain of salt. If you think a CEO is going to tell you anything but positive things about his company, then you’re a fool.

I think that if they had of run some sort of an expose on the securitization market, it would have just been ignored by the masses anyways. Nobody likes a party pooper.


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